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Talk:Hagoromo Ōtsutsuki
Status I believe I once brought a forum topic about this. In my opinion, we should reconsider what means to be dead within Narutoverse and we shouldn't use real-world logic and rules to determine life/death in fiction. In my opinion: * a dead person/creature = has gone to the pure land * still in the impure land = not dead Lets take Orochimaru as an example. We concluded him as deceased, but that was before the whole Curse Mark reveal. Technically, he never died, as his soul didn't go to the pure land to our knowledge. He only ceased to exist for a while in physical form, but his soul and consciousness remained. So I ask, is Hagoromo really "dead" ? He is now some interdimensional timeless entity... I would even dare to say a god.--Elveonora (talk) 11:11, March 27, 2014 (UTC) Well, this is all logical and nice, but the only problem that characters in the manga themselves deny this logic (Hagoromo included) by constantly referring to themselves as "dead" if their body is gone. Even Oro was referred more than once as "killed". So how about that?Faust-RSI (talk) 11:21, March 27, 2014 (UTC) :Orochimaru and Hagoromo are "special cases" that's why I'm discussing it in regards to them. Even in Narutoverse, the souls in the pure land appear to have no consciousness, since brain is required for that. I suspect that once the consciousness is gone, there's nothing to hold the soul in the impure land. But these two continue to have consciousness even without a form and as such their souls haven't gone to the pure land, meaning they are alive. Unless you consider someone crawling out of a neck as dead.--Elveonora (talk) 11:44, March 27, 2014 (UTC) I don't consider them dead, I don't even consider Edo Tensei's dead, calling them "zombies" is ridiculous on Kishi's side, as they are nothing like zombies. My problem is with the direct statements in the manga that say these particular characters are dead, regardless of how illogical it is. Are we going to just ignore them?Faust-RSI (talk) 11:49, March 27, 2014 (UTC) :That's because commonly demise of the brain in Narutoverse also equals death. It's 99% true, save for these two. They continue to: have thoughts, senses, awareness and be capable of actions, that's quite alive in my book.--Elveonora (talk) 11:57, March 27, 2014 (UTC) ::Dead. As dead as dead can get. If his spirit or chakra wants to float around ignoring space and time, fantastic. But he's still dead. The same can't even be used with Orochimaru actually, because Orochimaru was sealed, not killed. Permenant it may have been, Itachi didn't actually kill him, just left him in a state where he might as well been. But yeah, the Sage is dead. Very dead.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'TheUltimate3']] (talk) 12:32, March 27, 2014 (UTC) :::I get what you're saying, but I think if a character specifically refers to themselves as dead, then that's clearly the author saying they're dead. The thing that gets weird is that he also referred to himself as living chakra. I think if we're going to be accurate with these cases we need can't really call them "Alive" or "Dead", as neither accurately describes their status.--Soul reaper (talk) 12:39, March 27, 2014 (UTC) ::::Except the status field isn't for some weird metaphysical thing. Because that would be like saying because Naruto is Asura reincarnated, that Asura is not dead because he is also Naruto. Like I said, the Sage's spirit may have lived on as living chakra, but the man is still dead.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'TheUltimate3']] (talk) 13:00, March 27, 2014 (UTC) :::::Reincarnation is fairly different. The Sage himself described his state as living chakra. A description also given to the tailed beasts. I think Elveonora makes a good point when he says we shouldn't apply real world logic to such matters.--Soul reaper (talk) 13:36, March 27, 2014 (UTC) I'm not even implying real world logic. Because otherwise I wouldn't even entertain this discussion. I'm saying, as he even stated, that his life ended. Life ending equals dead. If he lived on as a phantom of living chakra, great job. But he's still dead.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'TheUltimate3']] (talk) 13:39, March 27, 2014 (UTC) @Ultimate, I didn't refer to Itachi's sealing of Orochimaru (which didn't happen anyway) but Sasuke's murder of Orochimaru and then the latter after his death crawling out from Sasuke's neck. And death indeed equals demise of physical form, well, unless you are Orochimaru or Hagoromo, that's what I'm saying. Even in Narutoverse consciousness gets lost once the brain dies and the soul then goes to the pure land. Didn't happen with Orochimaru tho, meaning he cheats death--Elveonora (talk) 13:56, March 27, 2014 (UTC) :I believe his status at this moment is as same as Minato from Pain's fight and Kushina form Kurama's fight. All those cases have the same situation that Naruto has about to die several times. —[[User:Shakhmoot|'Shakhmoot']] (Talk) 14:55, March 27, 2014 (UTC) ::Weren't chakra Minato and Kushina something akin to Shadow Clones sealed with fuuinjutsu? This is kinda different, as those vanished once the task was over for them.--Elveonora (talk) 19:37, March 27, 2014 (UTC) :::They were chakra, but nothing indicated they worked like shadow clones. Their disappearance was nothing like it. They seemed more like quasi-applications of the original ninshū, the whole understanding each others' feelings, but leaving actual chakra behind. Omnibender - Talk - 19:40, March 27, 2014 (UTC) Prince Since his mom was a princess, doesn't that make him one? Not sure how these things work.--Elveonora (talk) 12:14, March 29, 2014 (UTC) :I was wondering the same thing. XD ~IndxcvNovelist (talk | | PR | RLS) 12:16, March 29, 2014 (UTC) Bump--Elveonora (talk) 12:05, March 30, 2014 (UTC) Sharingan I'm just going to go ahead and broach this topic. His mother had a Sharingan. His son had a Sharingan. We now know the Rinnegan is the final evolution of the Sharingan with the addition of the Sage's chakra. Logical conclusion: Hagoromo had a Sharingan. Thoughts? ~ Ten Tailed Fox 07:09, April 2, 2014 (UTC) :Despite that he didn't mention it, but I couldn't agree more. —[[User:Shakhmoot|'Shakhmoot']] (Talk) 07:29, April 2, 2014 (UTC) ::Despite agreeing with your reasoning, I don't think there's any need to put the Sharingan in the Sage's infobox. Mainly because Hagoromo always used the Rinnegan, which we count as a different dōjutsu from the Sharingan, the Mangekyō Sharingan and the Byakugan.--JOA20 (talk) 07:32, April 2, 2014 (UTC) ::: That makes no sense whatsoever. Firstly, you have no idea how often (or not) Hagoromo used the Sharingan. Secondly, how is it a different dōjutsu? Its the final form of the Sharingan. We now know how it works. The Sharingan evolves into the Rinnegan when the Sage's chakra is within the user's body. And thirdly, we don't list things by how often they're used. We list things based on whether or not people have them. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 07:42, April 2, 2014 (UTC) ::::I actually have no problem with adding the Sharingan as Hagoromo's kekkei genkai. But if that were the case, should we add Mangekyō Sharingan as well?--JOA20 (talk) 07:45, April 2, 2014 (UTC) :::::The Rinnegan is described as specifically being the power of Hagoromo's chakra in his explanation, which is brought about by combining the chakras of Asura and Indra in a single host. This could indicate that Hagoromo was simply born with the Rinnegan, which I believe is how the situation was explained in previous accounts, which would mean that he never had a Sharingan. Likewise, it seems to me that if Hashirama had obtained Indra's chakra instead, he probably would have still obtained the Rinnegan without ever having had a Sharingan. There's also the fact that we still don't know where the Byakugan and Sharingan came from -- it's possible that they were obtained along with the power of Chakra. Given that their primary functions include the ability to observe chakra, it seems strange that they would have existed prior to mankind acquiring the power of the Divine Tree. Plus, her Sharingan is a third eye, which is just weird. Considering that Obito and Madara both obtained horns when becoming the Ten Tails' Jinchuriki, I can't help but think that these weird physical mutations are a result of the Divine Tree's chakra, not pre-existing genetic conditions. Unless Kaguya was an alien... Hrmm. At any rate, I feel like there are currently too many other possible explanations to just assume that Madara going from Mangekyō Sharingan to Rinnegan means that the Rinnegan can only evolve from a Mangekyō Sharingan. FF-Suzaku (talk) 10:12, April 2, 2014 (UTC) Kaguya's sharingan seems to be the final form rather than the rinnegan MangekyoSasuke (talk) 07:47, April 2, 2014 (UTC) :From what I understand, the Sage never had the Sharingan. Previous accounts state he was born with the Rinnegan, natural evolution of the Sharingan it may be, but if he was born with the Rinnegan he never had the Sharingan.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'TheUltimate3']] (talk) 11:19, April 2, 2014 (UTC) For reasons I already state in similar on-going discussions, that were likewise already stated by others here, I disagree with listing Hagoromo as a Sharingan user. Omnibender - Talk - 16:33, April 2, 2014 (UTC) Do you guys remember a while back when the sage was first shown, his silouette had Kaguya/Shinju's eyes, right after he became a jinchuuriki? MangekyoSasuke (talk) 19:27, April 2, 2014 (UTC) NopeUmishiru (talk) 19:40, April 2, 2014 (UTC) :I meant when Obito spoke about him. MangekyoSasuke (talk) 19:42, April 2, 2014 (UTC) Nope, can't even see his facial features let alone his eyesUmishiru (talk) 20:25, April 2, 2014 (UTC) :@Ultimate: The details of his birth weren't even touched upon until last chapter. He was only stated to have the Rinnegan. Not that he was born with it. Logic dictates that if his mother has it, his son has it, and it is genetically proven to be the final form of the Sharingan, then he had the Sharingan. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 22:21, April 2, 2014 (UTC) Hagoromo's Hair Color Hagoromo's hair color is grayish red: http://i.imgur.com/10qf5No.png The tone color variation yields red: http://i.imgur.com/Fkoeluq.png It is Grayish Red and should be updated on the appearance description Celebrei (talk) 11:14, April 2, 2014 (UTC) Yup, his hair is red. Perhaps used to be a more lively red when he was younger. I'm more worried about his skin tho, dude must not have been sunbathing like since ever lol. No wonder since he flies in some multi-dimensional timeless space for centuries.--Elveonora (talk) 12:21, April 2, 2014 (UTC) His current hair color IS Grayish-Pink. There's No confirmation that his hair was red before. So, you should put his hair color the way "it is". Not just from some speculations. The color variation tone your provided is also pink tone, which of course consist some red, but they are not actually red (Not red like Kushina or Mito Uzumaki), unless you're color-blind. If you look at Mito Uzumaki's hair color when she was very old, you'll see that her red hair is dull-red or grayish-red, unlike current SOT6P's hair color which is grayish-pink. Use the front color page, where he's with Naruto, and ask some strangers what hair color does SOT6P have, they'd say grayish-pink, not red. C'mon people, it's not rocket science to put your thoughts in an orderly way, and respecting the chronology of the topic. Omnibender - Talk - 18:07, April 2, 2014 (UTC) On the cover of Chapter 671 looks something like brown.—Entondark (talk) 23:30, April 2, 2014 (UTC) No, it's Grayish Red/Desaturated Red, the desaturation/loss of vivacity is caused by senility, but Hagoromo's hair is definitely red: http://i.imgur.com/eZk1u9q.jpg This is pink :(which is different from red) http://i.imgur.com/gHStH55.png Celebrei (talk) 00:46, April 3, 2014 (UTC) Do you really have to use Color Hexa to determine the color that is Obviously shown there? The picture it's obvious that it's grayish pink, not red to normal people eyes. OK, fine here's another example from color hexa. http://i.imgur.com/EygAHdj.jpg . I doubt his hair color was red before, because look at Mito Uzumaki's hair color when she's very old, her hair was dull/brownish red, not as light (grayish pink) as current Hagoromo's hair. No sir, it is red: http://i.imgur.com/8wZPZDC.jpg And this is reinforced by the second official colored page of 671: http://i.imgur.com/9cOnkOW.jpg Just like Mito in the anime, it is grayish/desaturated red. The primary color is red, the desaturation of the hair color is caused by senility, but the primary color is definitely red for both Mito and Hagoromo. Celebrei (talk) 04:29, April 3, 2014 (UTC) Asura and Indra Ōtsutsuki Why was the last name removed from Asura and Indra? They are their father's son. They should have their last name. Steveo920, 15:48, April 2, 2014 :Because that wasn't confirmed. Seelentau 愛議 20:53, April 2, 2014 (UTC) Skin Color Should it be added to the Appearence section that his skin color is pale blue-ish? Or wathever that color is? --RIkudo (talk) 02:50, April 3, 2014 (UTC) :Call it pale. Just one colour back and forth tug of war for him is enough. Omnibender - Talk - 02:52, April 3, 2014 (UTC) Marking or third eye? I was wondering, is the thing on Hagoromo's forehead really a marking, or is it possible that it's a third eye? After all, it looks the same as his mother's when it's open. Bloodytom (talk) 06:23, April 3, 2014 (UTC) :It's a marking. Seelentau 愛議 08:03, April 3, 2014 (UTC) How do you know that for a fact? It looks to me like he has a third eye like this mother had.--Reliops (talk) 21:24, April 18, 2014 (UTC) :Because it was never ever indicated to be anything else than a marking. • Seelentau 愛議 21:28, April 18, 2014 (UTC) ::Definitely a marking, like undoubtedly. It's drawn on his forehead, not sticking in and out like an eye--Elveonora (talk) 13:09, April 19, 2014 (UTC) Senjutsu of six paths Hi , I am new and I am curious what Madara meant by mentioning it when Naruto's back in new mode was shown. Could "Senjutsu of six paths" be reffering to Hagoromo's Senjutsu, original most powerfull Senjutsu ?.... It could be invented by Hagoromo when he found out Ten tails is made of nature energy. Could it mean that Hagoromo was also Senjutsu' user..., the wielder of Original Senjutsu which was later taught by Toad, Snake and Slug are Sage's personal summons. Maybe it could also explain why Toad Sage mode, Slug Sage mode and Snake Sage mode have most of the common abilities with few unique, which would be result of Hagoromo's Ultimate Senjutsu being adapted by different animals which changed it to fit their tastes and use. I mean Toad Sage mode is known of great physcial strength/durability of the body, Snake Sage mode is known of Speed and agility and Slug Sage mode would be known by healing/regenerative powers. What do you think ? --TTHHagoromoOotsutsuki (talk) 21:41, April 17, 2014 (UTC) Senjutsu is basically using of senjutsu chakra, which is based on natural energy. Now, Juubi is a mass of natural energy, and it was sealed inside Hagoromo. You figure the rest.Faust-RSI (talk) No offense, but I think people went full retard with the "senjutsu of six paths" I'd like it gone from Naruto's article too and so on. Basically, all it means is "senjutsu of sage of the six paths" shortened or even more directly, Hagoromo's Senjutsu--Elveonora (talk) 09:05, April 18, 2014 (UTC) Exactly, This is what I meant. Hagoromo Ootsutsuki should be also listed as Senjutsu user. Besides Senjusu of six paths is shortcut to the Senjutsu of Sage of six paths, which clearly imply Hagoromo as Senjutsu user. Besides if you take carefull look at Naruto's performance in the lastest chapter then clearly not just his physical strentgh/durabiltiy of the body increased which is main trait of the Toad Sage mode but also his speed/agility(Snake Sage mode's trait) and also healing/regeneration powers(Hashirama's/Slug Sage mode's trait) also get increased, which clearly indicate Hagoromo was not just Senjutsu user but also user of Ultimate Senjutsu which was later derivered into animal Sage modes: Toad, Snake, Slug. --TTHHagoromoOotsutsuki (talk) 09:11, April 18, 2014 (UTC) :He with no doubt is?/was a Senjutsu user, it's hardly refutable at this point. The reason why I reverted your edit was because speculation and grammar, sorry.--Elveonora (talk) 09:15, April 18, 2014 (UTC) Ok, I apologize for my grammar and I didn't want to create mess here ;/. Anyway while you are complete right about speculation of Toad, Snake and Slug sage modes derivered from the Senjutsu of six paths, I don't see reason why should't you list Hagoromo as Senjutsu user, please explain it to me. Clearly the way to harm Ten tails is use of Sage chakra and Hagoromo fought it. Another point is that Naruto just recived power from Hagoromo and Madara called it Senjtusu of six paths, while it also was proven that Naruto has not more pigmentation around his eyes, just like Sage of six paths. Tell me why am I wrong ? --TTHHagoromoOotsutsuki (talk) 09:24, April 18, 2014 (UTC) ::If it were on me alone, he would be listed as a user by now. Just wait for feedback of others first--Elveonora (talk) 09:30, April 18, 2014 (UTC) Ok, then I will wait for feedback of others ;), thanks for fast response --TTHHagoromoOotsutsuki (talk) 09:33, April 18, 2014 (UTC) We now know of Another person besides Gaara who has retained his jinchuuriki powers, it should be noted.--Elveonora (talk) 21:00, April 19, 2014 (UTC) :Since a jinchūriki dies when a tailed beast is extracted, why do we assume that they would lose these abilities in the first place? --Cerez365™ (talk) 00:03, April 20, 2014 (UTC) ::Good point. The answer is, dunno, we just assume, because logic has it that if you remove the source of x, subject should not be able to use x any longer or something. Perhaps it's no oddity, but basic stuff for a jinchuuriki to keep his/her Biju powers, the thing is, there haven't been many to told us after the beast was extracted, so... but we mention this in Gaara's case, so for the sake of consistency I suppose. Also may you please check his abilities section? I see something wrong with it... to be more exact, why does "Ninshu" section talk about Fuuinjutsu, Chibaku Tensei and the Moon, how is that relevant to it? Also him being a Senjutsu user is yet to be mentioned anywhere--Elveonora (talk) 12:04, April 20, 2014 (UTC)